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Post by celtics06 on Nov 15, 2006 20:03:34 GMT -5
i didn't say carpenter was the reason they made the playoffs not one singlerelief pither can be the sole reason of making the playoffs its not possible
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Post by Sylvy721 on Nov 15, 2006 20:50:48 GMT -5
Maybe not the sole reason but certainly the main reason. A bigger reason than anyone else. None of their starters won more than 12 games so you can't make a case for them, and none of their hitters had a big year. They had a bad offense, and good pitching (although the starters rarely got the wins). The bullpen often got wins, 34 of them in fact, and almost all games that relievers win are close. When you depend on your bullpen to be in the game when you get late leads for the win, you need a great closer to close the win out. The wins were spread among the middle relievers, so you can't say any of them were a bigger reason than Hoffman, and also the wins were evenly distributed among the starters, so you can't say that any of them played a bigger role. None of the hitters did amazing, none did horrible, but you can't say any of them were a big reason, because they weren't good in general. The Pads depended on several pitchers to get the wins, and one pitcher to close out all the games, Hoffman. No other teams could say this who were in the playoffs because they all had either a big bat or a big starting arm.
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Post by mzingg11 on Nov 15, 2006 20:55:40 GMT -5
Hoffman's the closer. Meaning he closes games. Meaning the team is winning and he comes in and pitches one inning, just three outs, to finish a game.
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Post by Sylvy721 on Nov 15, 2006 21:15:11 GMT -5
Every game. Every lead. Starters pitch every 5 days and often don't even pitch good in their rare time. Hoffman stayed consistent and was solid everytime out there. You could make that same argument for any starter. The starter's in the game and his offense wins it for him. It's all a team game. If Hoffman wasn't closing out the games, they'd have Scott Linebrink there, and he would have lost many games. For a closer, it's not about winning games, it's about NOT LOSING GAMES. Out of his 5 blown saves, 2 resulted after errors that could have ended the inning, and in 2 games he left the game tied. He lost 1 game by himself. Yes, he played a big role in the losses of the 2 games in which he left the game tied, but he only LOST 1 GAME BY HIMSELF. I must stress again, that his job is to not lose the game, and in that way you cannot compare him to Carpenter, who pitches to win the game.
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Post by celtics06 on Nov 16, 2006 16:30:34 GMT -5
like matt said Hoffman has to pitch1 inning 2 at max and you can't compare that to saying they dont pitch good every outing because they have to pitch 6 innings sometimes more sometimes less Hoffman only has to pitch one each time so he can throw as hard as with all he has because most likely if hes in its a lead and he can win it there, a starter doesnt know how long he'll be out there could be 1/3 of an inning or it could be 9 you just don't know so you have to balance it out so your arm doesnt get tired. Also who says it has to be 1 sole person that takes a team to the playoffs, they worked as a team they scored when they needed to. Also you say 2 games werent his fault which you cant use as an example because there are an awful lot more rrors when a starter is on the hill than when a reliver is. If he was their best pitch and in your case should win the cy young why would the padres take him out in 2 tied games wouldnt you want your best pitcher in
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Post by Sylvy721 on Nov 16, 2006 17:42:52 GMT -5
They took him out in two tie games after he let up the runs to tie up the game... that's why I said that he wasn't solely responsible for the losses in those games, but did play a large role. You can't say that a starter has to be prepared for anything (1/3 of an inning or 9) but Hoffman doesn't even know if he's gonna pitch on any given day. He could pitch 1 inning, 2 or none at all. He has to be ready everyday, every game, while the other starters don't have to be ready. Also, there are more errors when starters are pitching, yes, but the chances that an error costs the team the game while a starter is in are much smaller than when a closer is in. A closer comes in with the game on the line, and when an error is made, it usually loses the lead or tie. If an error is made when a starter is in, the team has time to make up for it. Also, I already said that I didn't mean he was the sole reason, that was wrong... but he was the main reason. With so many close games for him to save, there were different starters and middle relievers and hitters getting the job done. He was the only consistency, which is why he was the main reason they made the playoffs.
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Post by celtics06 on Nov 16, 2006 18:12:38 GMT -5
i just dont see how you can say a relief pitcher should win the cy young i mean i guess id possibly consider it if they won the series but hoffman isnt in the top 3 closers possibly even top 5 so he wasn't the most dominant. But a lot of closers would put up the numbers hoffman had if they played for winning clubs 4 bs's is not bad but its not something that is amaizing. Takashi Saito had 2 blown saves( he took voer the role May 15th) with a little break at the end of May so you can't give it to him for having great numbers, idk am i the only who doesnt think a reliver can lead a team to the playoffs
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Post by Sylvy721 on Nov 16, 2006 19:05:53 GMT -5
I don't see how you can say that he's not in the top 5 closers. He's gotta be easily considered the best at least in the NL. Yeah, maybe Takashi Saito had a better era, more k's and less blown saves, but until he does it consistently over a whole season, I don't think you can consider him better than Hoffman. He had half the number of saves as Hoffman.
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Post by celtics06 on Nov 16, 2006 19:47:49 GMT -5
im sorry when i said top 5 or 3 i meant in the league and saito missed one month of the year thats good enough for me saves are just about oppurtunities and how good your team hits and if your starters can stay in it i think BS's are more important
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Post by Sylvy721 on Nov 16, 2006 19:55:39 GMT -5
Well, Hoffman was 46/51 (.902), and Saito was what, 24/26 (.923)? it's almost the same percentage. But we won't change our minds so I guess I'll wait for Coleman to say something about Hoffman because he's the only person that agrees with me, and maybe he'll make a new point.
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Post by BOS Sports Fan on Nov 16, 2006 20:27:06 GMT -5
i agree with them bc i think a closer has to go above and beyond a starter to get the cy young. its 200 innings to 80. thats what i think
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Post by Sylvy721 on Nov 16, 2006 20:33:19 GMT -5
hahahahahha. But I just think he was more productive in his innings. Noone's changing their minds here, and I'm alone so I'm retiring from this thread until Coleman gets here.
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Post by celtics06 on Nov 16, 2006 21:10:17 GMT -5
a closer is supposed to be more productive than a starter if a closer had a higher era than a starter they definately shouldnt be winning cy young. pitching 80 (which would be a max) innings is a lot easier than pitching 200. ecspecially when you do it 1 at a time
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Post by Sylvy721 on Nov 16, 2006 21:11:49 GMT -5
He didn't have a higher era, just saying. Still waiting for Coleman though, cause I'm done.
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Post by mzingg11 on Nov 16, 2006 21:27:57 GMT -5
Coleman doesn't come on here remember.
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